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Writer's pictureTravis Leech

PoPCast Episode 10 transcript

Whitney: [00:00:00] All right. Today on our podcast, I am so excited because we are going to talk with some wonderful educators from Northwest ISD in Texas. We are going to talk about Patterns of Revision. So we are just going to get started. I would love for you ladies just to introduce yourself. Kelly, let's start with you.

Kelli: Hi, my name is Kelly Palmer. I am a 20 year educator and currently serving as a language arts coordinator for grades two through five in Northwest ISD.

Caitlin: I'm Caitlin Sherwood. I am a third grade ELA teacher. This is my ninth year in education and my fourth year in third grade.

Katrina: Hi. My name is Katrina Lawyer. This is my seventh year in education and I teach fourth grade at Northwest ISD. 

Whitney: Wonderful. So to get started how, we came across each other is just Kelly was sharing on social media that she was using some Patterns of Revision when it first came out in third grade. And I contacted her and said, “Tell me more!”  So that's how we connected here. And I invited them to come on and be on this podcast. So I guess, Ladies, if you will just share, how did you get into Patterns of Revision, where were you starting? I know you're also Patterns of Power users. So you just want to share your story.

Kelli: I can go ahead and start us off. So I initially saw Patterns of Revision pop up on one of the socials and it was available for pre order. And in our district, we've already been using Patterns of Power for several years and absolutely love it. We love the process. We love getting kids into the work of [00:02:00] grammar and revising, doing it authentically.

And so when this popped up, it was like, yes, let's preorder this right now. So I actually ordered it and read the entire book on a road trip and immediately took it to my director and said, what do you think about this? I think we've got to try it. 

 We roped in Ms. Lawyer and Ms. Sherwood as a pilot campus group of teachers, just a little cohort. And so we ordered the resources, we ordered the mentor text, and we did a lab site where we spent a day just learning more about it, coming through our standards modeling a lesson, and then the teachers turned the lesson, and then we offered feedback, and then they took it and ran from there.

So I don't know if you two want to speak about the process afterwards, but that's how we initially got started, and then maybe you can speak to how you finished out the year with it. 

Caitlin: We were very excited because looking at revision wasn't something that we were super strong in and weren't seeing a lot of revision happening in our classrooms. 

We collaborated a lot together to make sure we were on the same page. And towards the end of the year, like we saw a lot of results with the students. They were very excited. We had secondary instructional coaches come and watch. And get some feedback from them and whether they were ready for it, to get that buy in as well.

So we were very excited. We love it. This is our starting our, I guess we started this year with it as well. I've done two lessons so far. 

Katrina: Yeah, I second everything they said. We were super excited. I know I was really excited because I can talk about this later, but I've never had a program to teach revision. It's always here, revise. How do you revise? And what's that process look like? So we were super excited to get the ball rolling on this.

Whitney: Let's go ahead and just move into that now what do you, what are you [00:04:00] thinking? 

Katrina: So I know with my years of teaching the writing process has been the same you write and then you edit and then you revise and then you publish the writing and the editing we understand, especially with Patterns of Power, we get the editing part, but the revision I've never had anything to really revise. And I was very overwhelmed, like having 20 kids and trying to read all their papers and going, okay you said this many times. They don't understand.

Of course I said it many times. What does that matter? So having a program that really dives deep into the why behind it and giving examples and then diving into their actual writing has been amazing to watch and to see and to do and see the benefits of it. Long term, I looped up with fourth or third grade from last year up to fourth grade, and I can already tell they already did their personal narratives, and even their first draft, I can already tell that they had that in mind, because there was not even with the "Delete the Unnecessary or Repetitive Information", they did not repeat as much as they did the year previous.

I'm really excited to get into their nonfiction because we did, we started Patterns of Revision the second semester of school. So we had already done nonfiction and their personal narratives. So I'm really excited to get into nonfiction and have this ready to go because they repeat themselves over and over again.

And adding in and taking out and the talk too. I kept telling them, I'm like, whisper, read your writing, see if it makes sense, and they are looking at me like I'm crazy. But when we did those lessons and we talked about it, they were able to take that into their writing. 

Whitney: And that's something that we [00:06:00] just really stress in this process or these conversations our students can have about their writing, about the author's writing and the choices that were made.

And ultimately that elevates their own initial writing is what you're finding here, which is really exciting, right? Because they now have a better understanding that repeating is not something they want to do, and they're more likely to catch themselves doing that and they can. learn other ways to revise and more complex ways to revise as they get further into that.

Caitlin: I feel the same way. I feel like there wasn't really a concrete way to teach it. We were teaching ARMS, trying to just teach them like the acronym, but not necessarily how to apply it. So I feel like with Patterns of Revision, it's got a lot more structure and just giving us that isolation, teaching it in isolation. And I feel like that's been really valuable with my kids. 

Kelli: I know that was one of the initial just really exciting things about Patterns of Revision is that never have I ever stumbled across a tool that taught the different elements within our standards that we are asking writers to engage in, in terms of revision work, but doing so in isolation teaching them to take a lens when they're revising their work, because when a third grader looks at their writing, they're seeing this piece that they've poured into, it's really hard to uncover those specifics that they want to just take on a new vision for and improve and make better and.

And so by working through revision in a manipulating type of way, hands on it's just very powerful. And so that was initially such a huge draw for us to pilot this, try this out because we have never seen something that actually tapped into it. 

And I like that Ms. Lawyer brought up the fact [00:08:00] that revision often to educators and even students really fell into its own little category in the writing process. And I love the acronym DRAFT because it really does solidify that we are revising throughout our entire draft. Even when we're rehearsing, if we're repeating things, we need to start pulling that out, right?

And so it really does take that revision from just being this isolated time in the writing process to actually weaving it through the entire draft component. Miss Lauren, Miss Sherwood said really I love that they geeked out over it just like I did when their principal and I interrupted them in the middle of their class and said, "Hey, we're gonna pilot this. We're so excited."

 Even at first glance, they're like, oh my gosh, there are three lessons on how to delete unnecessary information. And oh my goodness, we need this. And so I just think that in itself is such a draw to using a resource because kids need to be taught these things explicitly and in isolation, but in a way that they can manipulate and apply and talk about.

Whitney: Yeah. So in isolation, just to clarify for our listeners, meaning that we're teaching a specific strategy for revision in doing it in a way where you were using those mentor texts and these, Being what the author chose to do and then taking that back into their own writing and doing that same work.

So an isolated skill, but still within context, right? So it is really powerful, and I'm excited that you all are seeing the same things that I see when I go in classrooms too: just excitement from the students and then most importantly, what they're doing in their own writing and, how they're taking these strategies to their own work as well.

So talk to me a little bit about before you came across Patterns of Revision, how were you teaching revision to your students or how were your students learning it? 

Caitlin: So I feel like with me, like it [00:10:00] got looped in with editing and it wasn't necessarily something that I taught. I would tell my kids like the arms acronym, add or remove or move around. It wasn't necessarily valuable to them because they were like what does that mean? And I was not really sure what it meant.

So not only did Patterns of Revision help our students, but I felt like it helped me as a teacher a lot for sure. 

Whitney: Good. And there's so many times where we just have our students add details. But still, they don't know what that means. And we don't really know what that means either. It's just adding some more, making it longer.

Whereas now we're being very specific about what we're adding. We're adding details to support our main idea or sentences or clarifying information or so. Good. I'm glad that you brought that up. What about you, Ms. Lawyer? 

 In third grade, they want to write so much and they're so proud they did a whole page and to go back and say, you need to take out these two sentences that hurts their heart a little bit.

Katrina: But with Patterns of Revision, when we explain why we need to take it out and we see the mentor text and we see how it sounds better, they're more willing to take out those sentences. And then when we get to the ad oh, it is getting longer cause I need to add more information.

So, having that direct teach lesson has been really beneficial because it makes them value their work more and it's not me going with a pen like, Oh, we got to take this out. We got to take this out. And it's helped me, like Ms. Sherwood said, have a direct lesson to teach because it was not being taught in my classroom. 

Kelli: I think , this process and teaching it in this way probably has taught us more about the level and rigor of our standards than we had before.

I think when we thought of revision prior and I've been teaching language arts for [00:12:00] quite a few years, but we looked at revision, in more like an overarching way, instead of really thinking about the different layers and levels of the ways in which we revise, are we right revising in a sentence level?

Are we revising the paragraph level? Are we revising within a whole piece and it taught us to really take a new look at the way we even viewed those standards prior or now as opposed to prior. And so it just allowed us to be really playful with revision and get excited about revision.

But I do think our instruction has been lifted because we know more about revision now because we have tools that are teaching us, the educator, about this choice that these authors had to make. And so that's been a neat thing too. We've learned more about our standards.

We've gotten to be really playful with the ways in which we teach kids how to revise. And then we, like you said, we have looped in the author's craft in a major way. So as much as this is doing for writing, it's also doing for reading. And when you think about when we read a piece and we have to come up with, Hey, what is this mostly about before we make any revision decisions?

What is this mostly about? We're tapping in again to that comprehension side of our brains. And so, The weaving in of both of those, in addition to teaching us more about our standards and more about the levels of revision, has just been very powerful. 

Whitney: It very much is a reading lesson as well as a writing lesson.

I find that too, where we're talking, when I work with teachers, just giving them the PD with this. That comes into conversation just among teachers as well. This is really also reading because we do, we have to read it first and really have some comprehension and context around the content before we can even think about revising what's there.

So excellent. So teachers go ahead and just [00:14:00] Take a minute to maybe highlight one or two student experiences or class experiences with these lessons, either from this year or last year whatever comes to mind. 

Katrina: I just, like I said I looped up with these kids. So we just finished personal narratives with them and we hadn't quite gotten to Patterns of Revision yet. We wanted to get some pieces in their writing journal that they could go back and look at. 

So when we finally got to it, I saw a lot of eyes pop up and they were really excited. And the fourth grade example was a little more difficult to figure out than the third grade example. And so they were really excited to dive into the lesson. And my, my new friends that were not here last year, I saw their eyes light up and go, Oh, that's it. And I had one friend who her whole personal narrative was almost repeating the same thing. So she was able to go back and to fix that. And when I read her final one, I was just like, Oh, yeah, it works! It works! I'm so happy. I'm so proud. So just seeing their level of writing, Level up and advance from third grade to fourth grade has been like, it gives me chills reading it. 

Whitney: Oh, I love that. Thank you. 

Caitlin: And there was a time when I believe Kelly was in my classroom and I had two students who were very passionate about their choices in the, or the partner work. So they were looking at their writing or the arranging, I believe, and they did not agree. And there were some tears. There's some passion behind it. And that, I'm not saying there's tears every time at all, but they were very passionate about what they saw and what they believed in, and they wanted to be right.

And I was talking to them about, The importance of just trying out different things and understanding [00:16:00] that this program's for that. Like we're trying different things in our writing. We also want to try different things while we're working with our partner and looking at different options. So that was a valuable lesson for them.

I feel like we didn't get as many tears after that little mini breakdown, but. They are very passionate about it. They want to do right and do what the author did. And it's not necessarily about that, really about the process. And I find a lot of value in that. I feel like this year I've taught it even a little bit better and I don't a hundred percent know why, but I feel like I've done better where my kids have been a lot more receptive.

So they haven't had Patterns of Revision since they're new to third grade, but they really picked up on it quickly. Even I saw them writing, working with a writing partner and it wasn't necessarily revision time or it wasn't, it was just during the writing workshop, they were meeting with each other, talking about their checklist that they have for their writing and they said, Hey, you repeated that part.

You need to delete that. It's repetitive. And just using even the vernacular that we see in the lessons and transferring that. So a lot of value in that for sure. 

Whitney: And that's so good. They are passionate about it because they're learning that they do have choices as writers and that what they choose may not be the same as the mentor author, and that's okay. But it is important that we explain why we think or why we choose as writers to do these things. And that's why we made these lessons to where purposefully there are meant to be multiple options for the students to discuss and consider. So I'm not, that I want to see tears, but I think that's also third grade, just as they're learning how to cooperate with one another as well and to learn.

So I think over time they're going to recognize, oh, you're making this choice and this is why, and I'm making this choice and this is why, and it allows those conversations even more. 

Katrina: And that's where you'll see more of the author's craft too, like when they're having those conversations they'll be like I chose this [00:18:00] because of that I, it leads into this. And I'm the author. So this is why. And we have that conversation when they don't agree with the rearranging they're like the author chose it this way because of this. And so when you're writing, you may choose it one way and another person may choose another. So I've also heard that conversation as well.

Whitney: Oh, good. That makes me so happy. Cause that's what we want. We don't want it to be about right and wrong. We really want it to be about the choices and meaning and effect for our readers.

Kelli: I have a great story. I think it was a student in Mr. Woods' class. The student was definitely a striving writer but still had some great work on his page. And I pulled up next to him, the lesson had been taught. They had moved into the apply part. And so he was diligently looking for things that he had repeated or might be unnecessary. Was the first initial lesson that we tried. And so we sent them off and I pulled over to him and just said, Hey, how's it going? Talk to me about what you're finding. And he said, Oh my gosh, I use very good. Like four times. 

And I was like, Oh, tell me about that. 

And he said, “At the beginning, we were playing baseball and this person was very good.”

And then I said, “In this paragraph, they hit the ball every time they went up to that and he was very good.” And then later in the story, I said, again, “he was very good.” And there was one other mention.

And so I said, where do you think that would make the most sense? 

And he said “If I said he hit the bat or the ball every time, I don't need to say he was very good because he's very good. If he hits the ball every time, I don't need to say it there.”

And so I said “Where would it make sense for you to put that?” 

And he said, “At the beginning. Hey, I was playing ball with my friend. He was very good because it was all about how he helped me get better.” And so he kept saying that. And then he said, “I don't really need it here.” I was just trying to make it longer. And so it made sense for me to [00:20:00] say that again. 

And So it really tapped into that I'd rather have quality work and I'd rather have it be more powerful using phrases and terms. 

And then at the end he said, “I think I could probably do better next time than very good. Very good was very good”. But he did it made him even think in future, like future him, like maybe I can think about very good.

So it was pretty precious just to see a striving writer who is able to even take this lesson, apply it to their work. I just thought that was a neat little story to share and lift up realizing how powerful it was and the placement of where you were putting things and then even Hey next steps, maybe I might come up with a different way to describe this.

Whitney: I love those stories. How powerful just to see what this is doing with your teaching in your classroom and making those connections with students back to authors, right? That's wonderful. So let's, for new users of Patterns of Revision, what advice might you give to new or even experienced users using Patterns of Revision?

Caitlin: So I feel like the most valuable part for me was that we sat down, we talked about the literacy lab and we really looked at, like, all of the front matter. I read the front matter. We talked about the purpose, we talked about the flow of the lesson, but I really feel like I didn't really understand anything until it was in front of me and it was modeled with the lesson.

So if you have the opportunity to see someone model it, if not, just, try it. Like I feel like even with trying it a couple of different times, like I got a lot better. Like even this year, I feel like I've seen a lot of improvement in my teaching and how the students are receiving it. And so I feel like just finding a lot of value in seeing it done.

I did listen to a couple of [00:22:00] y'all's podcast episodes and I feel like those were very helpful as well. Just giving me a little bit of a different insight. So those were helpful as well. Even after I've taught it for a little while, I did listen to some and it was pretty cool. 

Whitney: Great. And we have a webinar coming up.

So there'll be even more information out on that. I think probably by the time this episode comes out, the webinar will already be out. But yeah we will also have that available. 

Katrina: I second what Caitlin said and we're a little bit overwhelmed. Our principal bought us all of the mentor texts and the manual and everything and you know we read it and we're like okay we love it we see it, but where do we go from here?

And so once I agreed, once we saw Kelly give us a lesson with our students, we went, okay, like it can, there's a lot, but when you really dive into it, it's very structured and it's not as scary. 

Caitlin: And I feel like, especially with that first lesson, I've taught it with curriculum writers. I've taught it because I'm a curriculum writer as well.

And then I've taught it to all the third grade teachers. So I feel like even just with that, I've slowly gotten a little bit better with that as well, just having that experience teaching it. So as you progress through the lessons, I feel like. There's a big learning curve and you do get to where your students are conceptualizing it a lot better.

Katrina: Yeah, really trust the process and just be diligent with it and keep going, and it will get easier and you will learn more and more as you're going through it. 

Whitney: Kelly, any advice as a district leader, just implementing from your end? 

Kelli: From a district standpoint, I would say I definitely love the process of getting a small group of teachers to try it out.

I think there was a lot of power in not rolling something out that we hadn't had people dabble and play with. Finding some go-getters and some willing [00:24:00] administrators who will help you arrange a lab site and some time in classrooms and just diving into this in conjunction with your standards and really just seeking to understand the alignment and the process.

 We're already very invested in Patterns of Power. For us, this made a lot of sense. Another thing that we did is we had a conference in the summer. Ms. Lawyer, Ms. Sherwood and an additional educator came together and they taught a great PD to teachers on authentic revisions using the Patterns of Revision process. They actually even pulled in some sentences from Wild Robot. They did a little bit of pre PD work for anybody that wanted to come and learn a little bit more in the summer. And then we rolled it out to teachers at back to school PD and we taught teachers as they were the students.

 They got to live a lesson. That was very powerful. We utilized instructional coaches as we kicked off the year and offered, Hey, we'll come and teach your lesson. Let us come into your classroom and let us model this for you. And now we're making rounds next week just to see hey, let's get in classrooms and let's capture how this is going and let's take some pictures of some student work and capture student conversations so that we can lift up how powerful this is and what we're seeing.

Another thing is in grades three and above We have to give an end of your exam that we will not name until the end of the year. Part of it was also putting that assessment next to Patterns of Revision to show teachers this lesson is this question. This lesson is also about this question and this question.

And so getting teachers to make that connection for us was huge because then they got to see not only why would we do this because it's authentic and it's playful and it's fun and it teaches comprehension along the way, but also the alignment to the level and [00:26:00] rigor of standard and the way that it's going to eventually be assessed was huge.

 I would just say find some willing participants, think about PD pieces that you can do that are optional, that teachers who are ready for the next step in their writing instruction would want to attend, and then think about the power of it, rolling it out district wide and getting everybody on board. It was definitely a very exciting back to school PD when we got to say, Hey. So we have the resource now that is going to help us teach our kids how to love revising and how to do it authentically throughout their drafts. And so I would just say, be thoughtful about your process and how you roll it out and geek out over this because it's amazing.

Whitney: Thank you. So ladies, what is next for your classroom? I know you're finishing up personal narratives, heading into nonfiction. What's next with Patterns of Revision in your classrooms this year? 

Katrina: Like I said, we're going into nonfiction. I'm super excited. We have another Patterns of Revision lesson coming up and we like the kids who actually get really excited.

I got the D out, like I have a D draft and they're like, Oh, these patterns are revision and they know it. And it's just, it's exciting. And we're, I can't wait to see it. I can't wait to see the program blossom in fourth grade. Cause they, they haven't really had it for the fourth grade curriculum.

And so I'm really excited to see where that goes. 

Caitlin: And with me, I feel like, so we just finished our second lesson of delete, and this is new for these kiddos. Goodbye. Still in third grade. And they are very excited. They love doing it. They love seeing even the connection between the work they're doing with the sentences and how that translates to the author.

 We're almost done with delete and we're going to move into rearrange. And I feel like that'll be super helpful. We're moving into nonfiction as well. So having them being able to rearrange and when we get into like subtopics [00:28:00] and they're able to that didn't necessarily belong under that subtopic, helping them with that as well.

So I have a lot of excitement behind it. These kiddos are some great, strong writers, and I'm also excited for next year to see how I've taught it differently this year, and how they go to Miss Lawyer and see how that translates and how they've improved with that. 

Whitney: We always like to end with this question: what is one thing that's bringing you joy right now? So it can be at school or it can be in your personal life, but we just like to end with this idea of joy. 

Caitlin: I have a student who is a very reluctant writer and for the first three to four weeks of school He was getting very upset over writing to needing a break to not ever really work on writing. We have our intervention time and they work on things that they need to work on in class or we work on some different things, and he chose to go work on his writing and I said, What are you doing?

And he was like I needed to delete some stuff. And I was like, What did you delete? I repeated myself and I was like, Okay, so just like giving me that like I was like, Okay, you do whatever you want to do, dude. Good job. 

I was very excited that he wanted to do that. Going from like in prior grades, he'd never really written because he would be upset and he would get out of the writing. So giving him that outlet helped him. And then he's gotten a lot more excited about writing and I'm very happy as a writing teacher. 

Katrina: Yeah, something that is bringing me joy is football season and I just have three children and we're in the midst of all the activities and tennis and band and dance and all the things. And I'm just really happy right now.

And my students are doing fantastic and we're just getting the ball rolling. So that's what's bringing me joy. All 

Whitney: right. You Kelly. 

Kelli: I would just say the excitement [00:30:00] around this time of year in education, I feel like it is a time where we've made it past the hurdle of beginning of the year, teachers are really getting to know their kids.

Students are starting to see their successes and just the ways that teachers celebrate how students are doing. I get texts and emails all the time and pictures of what we did today, and I'm in classrooms and kids are showing off, off their work and just really proud of the things that are happening.

 Seeing education move forward and just teachers loving what they do and kids excited and just making progress it's a beautiful thing. And October can be crazy in education. But once we've gotten over that beginning of the year hurdle and just all the newness of everything, everybody finding their groove and then just celebrating how great things are going.

Whitney: Excellent. So I have to tell you, this episode has brought me pure joy and it has really been lovely talking with you ladies and hearing , how you got started with Patterns of Revision and how it's going and the excitement that you have and seeing what your students are doing in their own writing and really becoming even stronger writers than they already are and more intentional decision makers.

Right? So this has just truly brought me joy. I'm so excited that you all agreed to come on for this. And so I just want to thank you so much. And I wish you all the best time this year with your students. 

Kelli: Thank you for having me. 

Whitney: Great. And listeners you can find Patterns of Revision out there on the Routledge website or Amazon Barnes Noble, any of your favorite places to find it, but take a look and have fun with it.

Thank you, ladies.


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